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Indoor Air Quality Solutions and Implications for Health: 80

In this episode, I interview David Milburn of HypoAir about indoor air quality solutions and filtering. We discuss the problem of mold in homes, the impact of HVAC systems on air quality, and other air quality issues such as odors and off-gassing. We also talk about the importance of air quality as well as the detection and monitoring of air quality. Finally, we discuss different air purification solutions available and exciting developments in air quality technology.

In this conversation, Milburn also shares the importance of determining the correct size of HVAC filters and the challenges homeowners face in finding this information. He provides tips for requesting allergy-friendly rooms in hotels (I didn't even know this was a thing!) and addresses air quality issues in malls and commercial spaces.

The conversation concludes with a reminder of the importance of maintaining a positive outlook on indoor air quality and an extension of a sale on Hypoair's products. Go visit Hypoair with this link to take advantage of these savings!


Mold is a significant air quality problem in homes, especially in modern construction where homes are built tightly and trap mold inside.
HVAC systems can contribute to air quality issues if not properly maintained and equipped with the right filters.
Odors and off-gassing from furniture and other sources can also affect indoor air quality.
It is important to be aware of and monitor air quality in your home, and there are various indoor air quality solutions available, including air purifiers and ventilation systems. Determining the correct size of HVAC filters is crucial for optimal air quality in homes.
The tonnage of an HVAC system plays a significant role in filter selection.
Using incorrect filter ratings can lead to strain on HVAC systems and increased energy costs.
Regular filter changes are essential for maintaining air quality and reducing dust in HVAC systems.
Hypoair plans to expand air purification to other home systems and offers products for healthcare facilities.
Working with hospitals and corporations can be challenging due to their lack of concern for air quality issues.
Requesting allergy-friendly rooms in hotels can help improve air quality during travel.
Malls and commercial spaces often have air quality issues due to cleaning products and fragrances.
Maintaining a positive outlook on air quality and taking proactive steps can help improve overall health and well-being.
Hypoair extends a sale on their products to listeners of the conversation.

Watch on YouTube


00:00 Introduction and Background
01:22 The Problem of Mold in Homes
04:09 The Impact of HVAC Systems on Air Quality
06:29 Other Air Quality Issues
08:05 The Importance of Air Quality
09:43 Dealing with Odors
23:24 Detection and Monitoring of Air Quality
30:25 Choosing the Right Air Purification Solution
39:26 Exciting Developments in Air Quality Technology
41:42 Determining HVAC Filter Size
42:32 The Importance of Tonnage in HVAC Systems
43:15 The Impact of Incorrect Filter Ratings
44:19 Expanding Air Purification to Other Home Systems
45:02 Hypoair's Products for Healthcare Facilities
46:14 Challenges of Working with Hospitals and Corporations
48:25 Applying Hypoair's Technology to Homes
49:42 Requesting Allergy-Friendly Rooms in Hotels
51:32 Air Quality Issues in Malls and Commercial Spaces
53:14 Maintaining a Positive Outlook on Air Quality
54:11 Closing Remarks and Sale Extension

Episode Transcript

Cheryl McColgan (00:00.97)
Hey everyone, welcome to the Heal and Nourish Grow podcast. Today I am joined by David Milburn of HypoAir and I'm really excited to share his knowledge with you guys today. I've heard him on a few different podcasts and he's just such a wealth of knowledge on indoor air quality solutions and filtering. And I just thought you have so many interesting things to say that I'd love for you to share it with the Heal and Nourish Grow audience. So welcome David, and if you could just kind of introduce yourself and let us know how you got involved in this space.

Milburn (00:24.294)
Thank you.

Milburn (00:28.742)
Well, that's very kind of you. I do not like listening to myself speak. Hopefully we can help some people. We're basically on this journey with you guys. We've been doing air quality for about 15 years. And basically every week we hear about a new situation. We've never heard it before. So we're kind of in that same process of just trying to discover solutions and trying to basically unmake how unnatural our homes are.

Cheryl McColgan (00:33.358)

Milburn (00:54.83)
and try to bring them into a more natural state. So we're kind of on that journey with you. We love having these conversations we learn from you. We learn from our customers. We hear the situations they deal with, and then we just try to find solutions to that. But yeah, our guiding principle is basically how can we bring in what's happening outside? So what are the natural processes outside, bringing them inside to make our homes more natural because they're very unnatural, and that's leading to a bunch of unintended consequences. So.

Cheryl McColgan (01:22.538)
Yeah, the indoor air quality solutions conversation, I'm sure we'll get to that later in the podcast. But I think one of the things that's topped on my mind today is because I couldn't sleep very well last night, which is unusual, thankfully. But I ended up listening to yet another podcast because that's how I keep up to speed on all the latest news and all the latest technology. And they brought up the mold conversation again. And I know this is something that I've heard you talk about before. So I think it's really important for people to know that there are…

Milburn (01:44.059)

Cheryl McColgan (01:52.098)
some ways that they can deal with it, that they can improve their indoor air quality above and beyond what their HVAC system's doing. So maybe you could start by just kind of sharing with people a little bit about why the way we build houses now can create this situation and the things that you've sort of found that can mitigate that.

Milburn (02:09.681)

Absolutely. So the understanding about mold is growing kind of across the board and one of the reasons for that we're finding is basically Humanity we're kind of in this experiment of modern construction and then one of the biggest consequences of that is very unnatural concentrations of mold and so Mold you're gonna find outside you walk outside in a forest you walk outside in a city You're gonna find mold but the concentration is really small. So with a lot of air quality issues It's the dose that creates that poison

It's the concentration that begins to overwhelm the body. And so if our homes are made of materials that mold loves to grow in, dry wall and whatnot, and then we seal them up as tight as we can for energy efficiency, what we're doing is trapping mold inside, both the living and the dead spores. Both can carry the mycotoxins.

and then it's able to grow out of control. There's no natural predator, there's no natural process that's suppressing it. And so especially if you're in a place with humidity, you don't even have to have leaks in the house to have mold problems. It's just how the home was built and where it's built. So, you know, we have clients where new construction, top of the line, really expensive home in Florida within a couple months.

It's just fully contaminated with black mold. And it's really sad, because we hear all the horror stories. And so mold is not the end all be all, burn your house down and start over. If you find it, you're gonna find mold kind of.

Milburn (03:40.986)
you know, in new furniture, you're gonna find mold and mold sampler test kits, you know, before you even take a sample. So mold is gonna be all over the place, but it's the concentration that matters the most to us. And then all of our bodies are gonna interact with mold differently. But you mentioned the HVAC system. A lot of people know no one ever taught them about the HVAC. So maybe you move into a house, you're renting or maybe when you buy a house, no one ever even told you to change the filters. So we have people that have spin.

Cheryl McColgan (04:06.818)

Milburn (04:09.002)
$100,000 on biohacking equipment, and then they've never changed the filter in their HVAC system. Or maybe they've spent $5,000 on plugging HEPA air purifiers, and they've got the cheapest possible filter in their HVAC system. The problem is that HVAC system is moving exponentially more air.

then thousands of dollars worth of HEPA plug-in products. And then HVAC system is a damp, dark environment that is prone to harbor mold, or at least distribute mold. And then one of the other challenging things that we find is the HVAC system is almost always located in an unfinished part of the house.

Cheryl McColgan (04:45.002)

Milburn (04:45.406)
So you might have this nice new home, and then you've got this unfinished attic, and that's where they put your HVAC system. Or you've got an unfinished basement that floods. That's where the HVAC system is. So a lot of times these HVAC systems are, it's kind of out of sight, out of mind. You don't really see what's happening behind that vent. But a lot of times that's gonna be the root of your air quality, either benefits or problems.

And with something like mold, a lot of times mold's gonna be growing in or around the HVAC system. Or if there's any type of leak, any type of humidity issue, then that mold can take root inside the HVAC and then be distributed through that system. Or in the case of maybe you have a leak in a bathroom.

and sometimes that mold can then get back into the HVAC system. So if you have an unhealthy HVAC system, that's a hard thing to overcome. So if someone has central layer of any kind, we say start there with the air quality solutions conversation because you can undo that, you can mitigate it, you can take steps to be preventative in the future. And then with our technologies, you can upgrade that into the air purifier. But not everyone has central air. So central air is relatively unique to North America for homes.

And so a lot of places you might have like a window mounted system, maybe you have no AC, maybe open your windows. And in many cases, that's great, you know, to cool off your house, but maybe you live next to a train station or a steel factory. So we have those clients too, where it's, um, your unique situation, where a home is, how it was made, what's going on there is going to kind of dictate.

the steps you need to take to make it a more natural environment. But to us in North America, at least, mold is the single greatest air quality problem that we're facing right now.

Cheryl McColgan (06:29.174)
Yeah, and a lot of people, I think it's an interesting thing to just bring more awareness to because I think a lot of people hear, oh, mold. In this one interview that I was just listening to, it's actually a really high-level, really popular podcast. And he threw out the word, it's like a conspiracy, really, that there's that much kind of hiding of what is happening and what you described, like the more efficient the homes we get, the more mold problems we're seeing. And nobody really wants to take accountability for this. And then-

Milburn (06:53.062)

Cheryl McColgan (06:58.146)
People hear that and they think, well, I don't have allergies or I'm not sensitive to mold, but some of these health problems, it runs the gamut, right? So I've heard, like you were saying, the horror stories where people are just completely debilitated and having all kinds of very, very serious health problems, or it can just go to, you're really fatigued all the time. And that's it, and you don't know why. And it could be something as simple as that your indoor air quality is poor. So I do like to bring that up because

Milburn (07:08.378)

Milburn (07:17.674)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, mm-hmm right

Cheryl McColgan (07:25.022)
if you've ever been experiencing a health problem where, you know, your diet's dialed in, and you do all these things that we talk about on this podcast, right? You're pretty darn hardcore, while your air might be one of the final things that you just really haven't addressed yet. And so that's why when I heard your interview before, I got so excited, because I thought, my gosh, of all the things I've addressed, I do have to help with filters and stuff like that, but I didn't even know that a solution that could work at the HVAC level even existed until I heard your podcast. So that's why I was really excited to share this.

Milburn (07:35.299)

Milburn (07:52.302)
Yeah, yeah, and air quality typically is kind of maybe the third piece on the journey. Like maybe you start with food and water, and then air quality is this kind of distant nebulous third, but we breathe the equivalent of a swimming pool every day. And the way we try to describe it is that air quality is one piece of the puzzle.

Cheryl McColgan (08:05.314)

Milburn (08:13.35)
For some people, it's gonna be a really big piece. You were sleeping poorly last night, maybe because you were worried about whatever or watching too much news, or maybe because it was air quality. So it just depends. It's not the silver bullet for everything, but if your air quality's bad, then there's a lot of other consequences to that. And air quality takes a lot of different forms. Sometimes it's chemicals, sometimes it's…

you've got an old throw rug and every time you walk on that rug you're breaking off little pieces and those particulates get getting into the air and they're irritating you. Sometimes it's mold in the HVAC, sometimes it's a messy smell that's indicating mold, sometimes you can't smell that at all. So your air quality is tricky and so that's why a lot of people it's kind of further down the list or they wait till they have a problem or they wait till there's a wildfire or something along those lines but as much as possible we'd want to just be preventative and the majority of

falling in situations that are really unhealthy, so really bad situations, but probably a good 20% of our clients, there's no problems, and they're just trying to be proactive, and with something like mold, you set aside all the health issues, it can be really expensive. So just try to get ahead of that so that your house doesn't get contaminated with something that's gonna cause you money down the line, but just by introducing natural processes into this,

Cheryl McColgan (09:24.686)

Milburn (09:36.238)
relatively unnatural indoor environment that can then combat mold continuously. That's our approach.

Cheryl McColgan (09:43.054)
So one of the things that I've heard you say, and it's interesting because then you brought up the wildfires, which unfortunately we've had a lot of in North America this past year. But so for example, one kind of like low level thing could be open your windows more often, right? Just get some circulation. Because one of the issues with the houses are now, they're built too tight, so they're just holding all that in. So open your windows more often. What about for people that have allergies or live in an area where there's a fire going on? Then what's kind of your next suggestion after that?

Milburn (09:54.832)

Milburn (10:11.382)
Yeah, yeah, one of the biggest pieces of this whole puzzle is just connecting air quality with how you're feeling and just educating yourself on what's happening inside and around your house, because air quality is not like a green, oh, you have good air quality, and then it's red, oh, you have bad air quality. Well, the green, but there's pollen in the air, and now you're reacting to pollen. Or maybe…

There's mold, there's particulates, there's chemicals. There's a lot of different pieces to that, and a lot of times we oversimplify it. And so with the outside air, in general, across the board, it's cleaner than the indoor air, statistically. But, that air quality at rush hour?

in close proximity to a road is 50 times worse than an hour before. So it's very dynamic. So there could be a part of the year where, yeah, you open the windows and you're getting a specific type of tree palm that you're reacting to. Or during a certain time of year, maybe there's a lot of boats at the port and you're kind of near the ocean and the wind of flow is pulling that to you. Then the air quality outside could be worse than the indoor air.

especially if you're taking proactive steps. So part of that is educating yourself. You know, wildfire being an extreme example, maybe it's a thousand times worse than normal. In that emergency, you're going to seal up the home as tight as you can.

and try to mitigate it until you can get through that emergency. But in general, fresh air is going to be a good thing. Our ideal scenario is to try to filter that fresh air as it comes in, in some way. So we have nanofiber window screens for clients that maybe the only way they cool their house is to open the windows. But you know they live near a high traffic area, they live in the desert and there's high particulates, so you can try to trap some of those particulates on the outside.

Indoor Air Quality Solutions

Milburn (11:56.398)
and still get the fresh makeup air in and vent some of the bad air. Because it's not just about bringing air in, you have to actually push air out. So you wanna push the bad stuff out, you know, like a kitchen exhaust fan, you wanna exhaust humidity like in the bathrooms. But sometimes air purification is simply exhausting the bad and bringing in better air from outside. But yeah, being aware of what's happening outside, it's gonna change throughout the day, throughout the year. It's very, very much related to proximity.

relatively new, not real new, but newish, where the HVAC is gonna incorporate bringing in outside air in, and that's commercially required by law in most of America, but homes are gonna have HRV or ERV systems that are pulling air in from outside and then mixing in with the indoor air. That's a good thing most of the time, but we have clients where the place where they're bringing air in is where their neighbor smokes. So now they're bringing smoke in from their neighbors.

as a the goal was to bring in fresh air but now they're mixing it in with cigarette smoke and so you're kind of getting a net probably problem with that indoor kind of make of air and so yeah it changes a lot depending on where you live who's around you and one of the things we haven't touched on yet at all is multifamily because you know you mentioned like you're being really careful people listening this podcast are being really careful maybe with what they're eating what they're drinking maybe cleaning products they're using

Cheryl McColgan (13:15.862)

Milburn (13:25.274)
But if you live in a condo, you're breathing the same air almost that your next door neighbor is. And so their decisions are affecting your indoor air quality. And there's ways to mitigate that, but sometimes you're gonna be having cigarette smoke or marijuana smoke coming through the floorboards. So as much as that floor feels solid to us, to chemicals and air, it's not. It's gonna eventually penetrate that. So yeah, there's lots of…

unique scenarios and that's one of the things we often say is just slash consult reach out to us we'll give you specific individualized recommendations because yeah for some people it's opening that window it's literally that's all you're doing for air quality don't buy our products just open your window and you know you're renting the place for a few months you don't have a lot of money

Cheryl McColgan (14:05.674)

Milburn (14:09.638)
there's ways to mitigate that. For some people, that's not really an option. You gotta keep that window closed or you have to only open it maybe at nighttime and then you've gotta purify the air the rest of the time. So there's different kind of challenges depending on where you live.

Obviously, temperature is going to be a problem for a lot of people during the winter. You can't just open the windows to get fresh air. And so there's lots of factors that come into this. But yeah, our indoor air in general is much more contaminated than the outside air. And the big reason for that is outside, there's all kinds of processes that are breaking down chemicals that are removing particulates that are killing mold, killing bacteria, killing viruses. But inside, there's almost none of those processes in most of our homes.

Cheryl McColgan (14:28.718)

Cheryl McColgan (14:54.85)
Yeah, so you mentioned, let's see, we've mentioned mold, we've mentioned forest fires, you mentioned particulates, viruses, any other kinds of indoor air quality issues that are maybe things that people don't think of, there's off-gassing from some furniture, and that's why, you know, now it's a big thing to go with organic mattresses, because your mattress actually off-gasses, and then you're spending hopefully eight hours a day in there getting some good sleep. But what other things have you, just in your research,

Milburn (15:18.954)

Cheryl McColgan (15:25.238)
designing these products to deal with certain scenarios, are there some unusual things that people don't think of in terms of indoor air quality solutions?

Milburn (15:32.326)
Sure, and I'll just some of those and real quick just to use mold as an example though. So mold is going to be something that's living. So it's growing, it's reproducing.

As it grows, it's gonna be off-gassing chemicals. So you mentioned off-gassing. Mold is gonna off-gas mold VOCs. We like to describe that as the body odor of mold. It's not true, but it just kinda helps with the kind of the analogy there. So it's off-gassing this body odor, and then it's also sweating. And again, that's not true either, but it's creating liquid mycotoxins. Those are chemicals. That's not a living thing. And so you can kill the mold.

But then you would still have the particulate, so the piece of the mold that's left. You could potentially have the off-gas VOCs, those don't last too long. But then those liquid microtoxins can last for years.

So even if you killed all the mold in the house, you could still have a liquid chemical that is literally used as a bio weapon that can be there for two, three years later and still be toxic. So even though mold is like one thing, it's actually composed of living, dead, particulates, off-gassing chemicals, and liquid chemicals. So it does get rather complicated, and for each of those things, sometimes there's a different approach on how you deal with it. Maybe use an enzyme cleamer for like a leftover liquid mycotoxins,

or use carbon for the mold of VOCs. So there's different approaches, maybe to the different components. But as far as unusual contaminants, I mean, we hear it all. I mean, like the neighbor next door is making spices in the bathtub. And that's just what they do. And so there's spices coming through the HVAC system. Or carpets are gonna be a really big one. Homes are built in really weird ways.

Cheryl McColgan (17:08.063)

Milburn (17:21.226)
So sometimes a bathroom doesn't have an exhaust fan at all, or maybe the exhaust fan pumps the humidity up and into the wall. And so it looks like it's working, but it's actually just pumping the humidity into your wall. Or we had one of our research team was able to help a lady that was really sick in our house and discovered that the water heater had no functioning vent. And so you can purify that air, but really the water heater is pumping toxic

fumes into your house and the better way to do it is to fix the vent. So they fixed the vent and it cleared up the air quality issue. So sometimes it's not necessarily about purification as much as kind of putting on your building inspector hat and getting to know your house and trying to address where some of these issues might be compounding or leading to problems. Yeah. I mean, we, we see a lot of kitchens where maybe the kitchen was built on the bottom floor in the middle of the house with no vent.

So you've got bedrooms above it, you've got living rooms and everything around it. And so everything you're cooking in the kitchen in the gas stove is producing particulates and chemicals. And it's just going throughout your house. And so it's just not a good situation. Maybe there's ways that you can mitigate it. Maybe you open a window.

you know, in the living room or you kind of cross ventilate, but you're getting that bacon grease, you know, you're getting all those fumes kind of in your house. And so like there's lots of those things that, you know, I think intuitively a lot of us understand after time with your house, but

Cheryl McColgan (18:44.63)
Thank you.

Milburn (18:54.49)
being a little bit more intentional with that is a good thing. But yeah, I think a lot of people are understanding the problem. You know, you buy a new car and you got the new car smell. I think people are now realizing, okay, that's a chemical. Maybe that's not good for me. Or, you know, you add a, you know, fresh rain smell to your detergent. Well, that's not actually fresh rain smell. That's like a synthetic chemical, right? So I think the understanding of, okay, so a lot of these things are contributing to air quality problems, but then the gap is really how do we practice.

Cheryl McColgan (19:13.558)

Milburn (19:24.058)
deal with that. And same with something like mold where it's like yeah I know it's a problem but okay you live in Florida what do you do you know you're just gonna remediate the house every few years that would not be our approach you know we just want to have active mitigation but yeah I mean almost everything you're bringing to the house including the people and pets are gonna be contributing to the that air quality problems but now we just need to add that natural mitigation.

Cheryl McColgan (19:40.898)

Cheryl McColgan (19:47.37)
Speaking of, you brought up odors, which I think is an interesting one because some odors might just be annoying, but some of them could be, you know, potential health hazard. But are there ways to deal with things like odors, whether it's, you know, say you moved into, you know, you gave a scenario of an apartment might be the more common one, but there might be smoke smell or pet smell or something like that. Is that really related to air quality? Is that just more like an annoyance kind of thing?

Milburn (20:06.386)
Thanks for watching!

Milburn (20:13.83)
I mean, yeah, I mean, to your point, there's odors that are not going to cause you any health issues, but are definitely not going to be pleasant. You know, you could have a bunch of like ammonia, basically, from a lot of cat pee or something like that. You know, maybe it's not going to cause you health problems, but it's not going to be very pleasant. And so, yeah, there's all kinds of ways that you can do with that. And as an aside, we have over 250 free articles on our site that go into very kind of niche scenarios.

Cheryl McColgan (20:25.611)

Milburn (20:42.874)
including things like pets or carpet care. You know, someone, you know, we hear this story actually somewhat frequently where someone bought a home or they're renting a home and the person before them didn't smoke, but the person before them did and maybe that's 10-20 years ago and maybe they just did kind of like a mediocre job painting over it or something, but you can literally have some nicotine in the walls that's still causing you problems like 20 years later.

And so there's sometimes there's unique either products that you can use to address that specific contaminant or with something like pet odor or a lot of like cigarette smells, marijuana, just natural smells as well. You know, we do have a product that's a iodine and copper based patented formula.

non-VOC, non-toxic that would actually break down those chemicals. So when it comes to something like odor, you kind of have a couple options. One is to exhaust it. That's probably the easiest and well, actually the first option is source control. So if you can address the source of it, but aside from that, the next one is exhausting it. So if you're cooking or you've got an animal, if you can exhaust those odors, that's the quickest.

The next one is absorbing it. So that's where something like activated carbon come in. So activated carbon is good, but it's costly. It has minimal kind of longevity because once it absorbs the chemicals, then it's full. We recommend carbon for the HVAC system because it's minimal cost, but you can have a big benefit from it because of the amount of air going through your HVAC. And you're only looking at a couple of dollars a quarter.

and yet almost all the air you're breathing is going through that. So you can get a little bit of chemical absorption there, and then you're gonna throw away. So it's basically gonna capture it, throw away. The third option is basically breaking it down. So breaking it down on a molecular level, you can use something like the iodine copper formula of ours, just total clean. You can use something like our Air Angel, which has the APCO technology, use hydroxyl radicals to rip it apart. So you can use natural process to actually break down the chemicals that are the source of those odors.

Cheryl McColgan (22:53.502)
Awesome. Yeah. I think we, you knew this a little bit. I have a new house. So I'm learning some of these things about this particular house. And there's a few very interesting things with the HVAC systems, the some leftover pet odors, some different things. So some of this is definitely well-timed to deal with these things. And again, I think some of them are not really a health hazard kind of thing, but then on the other hand,

Milburn (22:58.665)

Milburn (23:07.89)

Cheryl McColgan (23:19.33)
the kind of HVAC things that have been pointed out so far are essentially a health hazard. So when it comes to that, do you, does any of your technology, so most of your technology I feel like that I've heard in the past focuses on mitigation or just keeping it clean to start with, but is there anything that deals more like with detection or warning you of problems, whether it's carbon monoxide or other things that I'm not even thinking about?

Milburn (23:24.927)

Milburn (23:47.3)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, that is a hope and dream of ours, but I'll tell you what we have now. One of our, and I didn't really talk about this much, but our background is with commercial applications, so large scale hospitals, sewage plants, casinos, aerospace. One of our aerospace clients,

Cheryl McColgan (23:51.238)

Milburn (24:07.814)
spent $15,000 on one room trying to find a chemical and they couldn't find it. And they are one of the biggest companies in the world. They know their stuff. And they could not find the odor. So trying to find chemicals in a house is very expensive and not really practical. We've rented multi-thousand dollar VOC sensors and taken them into a casino on a Friday night and they've registered zero parts per billion.

VOCs. And so, yeah, so not quite accurate. I think we can be safe to say that. So anything that says T VOCs, so total VOCs, as far as the sensor, I don't think there's any way that it knows. When it comes to what is available on the market, as far as what we have, we recommend a $5 humidity sensor. So cheap and affordable.

Cheryl McColgan (24:38.613)
That seems definitely wrong.

Milburn (25:05.198)
but get an understanding of how the humidity in different rooms of the house, not just in one spot, but different rooms in the house is changing throughout the year, that's gonna be to us one of the best mold detection tools to get to know a house, especially a new home. Because that way you can determine, okay, this bathroom here, it's not venting sufficiently. Maybe I need to run the exhaust fan more. Maybe the exhaust fan doesn't work. Maybe you've got a teenage daughter that showers twice a day and it's just too much humidity.

take further steps. There's a lot of more sophisticated moisture meters for indoor air quality solutions and with something like mold a lot of it comes down to moisture management. So mold management, moisture management. You can't always get rid of the humidity but at least if you know where it is you can take steps to mitigate it. So we were big fans of humidity meters. We certainly recommend carbon monoxide detectors. It's a small cost.

big benefit potentially, right? That's something, a great example of something you can't smell, but could have obviously very dangerous consequences. And that could come from something like a water heater. But yeah, so carbon monoxide detectors, smoke detectors, obviously really good ones. A CO2 sensor, not quite as affordable, but CO2 can be an indicator.

of ventilation problems. So sometimes in like high-rise apartments or places like that, that might be a bit more sealed or you're trying to reduce the amount of outside air. Maybe you get a CO2 sensor and that's just basically going to give you an indication of are you getting enough of outside air? Are you getting enough ventilation?

Particulate sensors are pretty good. So you can find particulate sensors that look for PM10 or PM2.5. Those are kind of a bit more buzz terms, but to kind of put it into perspective, the human hair is around 50 to 100 microns in diameter. A PM10 sensor is looking for 10 microns. PM2.5 is 2.5 microns.

Milburn (27:12.286)
In general, those 2.5 are gonna be the ones we're most concerned with, because the larger particulates, your body's gonna be able to handle them. They're gonna be heavy, they're gonna fall out of the air. You're gonna be able to vacuum them up. But the smaller ones, in general, are gonna be the harder ones to capture our own bodies, as well as to filter with an air purifier. So something like a PM2.5 sensor, especially if you're in a city, could be a really good one, because those PM2.5 particulates are the ones linked to lung cancer from cigarettes,

or from diesel exhaust. And so yeah, particulate sensors are gonna be good ones. When it comes to mold, we do like Gotmold. It's a company that does, sends based like an airborne sampler. And so if you're trying to prove to a spouse or a landlord that you have mold and how much you have and the types you have, we see that as probably the most practical option for like testing. So Gotmold.

And I think we've got a discount, HypoWare or something like that, HypoWare 10, something like that, gives you 10% off maybe. But we've known them since they founded and they really know their stuff and they're trying to make it accessible because a local molder mediator might charge you a thousand bucks and they're charging like $300 or something like that. And it's at least the same quality if not better.

But yeah, chemicals are tough. Anything biological, so bacteria, viruses, you can take little Petri dish kits tests, but really you need a lab. And the sample collection process is just hard for a lay person. You know, you don't do this all the time. It's hard to get really an accurate reading. And a lot of times those kind of surface swab tests are gonna lead to a lot of false positives. Not to say that they aren't an excellent tool, but we just see them kind of misused a lot.

and people coming back with like really high readings that don't give it accurate view of their home. So I guess that would be a few but we've for years explored some of the best sensors on the market.

Cheryl McColgan (29:11.718)

Milburn (29:20.034)
like multi-thousand dollar sensors that go on your house, you know, to measure the outside, you know, nitrous oxide and, you know, sulfur dioxide and particulates and all this kind of stuff, but they're just not practical yet. So the human nose or dog's nose is far better than what technology can achieve right now. And even those can be easily fooled by what you're around all the time.

So it's tough, yeah, it's tough. We hope in the future to have more devices that can give people actionable data. But the reality is that those devices, even though they don't work that well, are far more expensive than the solutions. Yeah.

Cheryl McColgan (30:03.322)
And so for people that I know I'd love that you have on your website basically just schedule a consultation You can describe your situation and you can help them choose the product match that's best for them But if you just had to describe, you know, you mentioned the angel air already and then I know that you have also an HVAC Unit, can you kind of describe both of those a little bit and address what they actually do for you? And this is outside of obviously like you said very specific situations

Milburn (30:25.476)

Milburn (30:29.986)
Sure, yeah. So general advice, we're gonna say, if you have central air, so any type of vents in the house, let's use that. Even if you're renting, that's gonna be the most effective and cost efficient way to purify the air throughout the home. So, and we can dive into that more. But that aside, we're gonna say start with the bedroom. This whole conversation can be a bit overwhelming. At least try to create a safe place in that bedroom. You mentioned mattresses. There's a lot that you can do in the bedroom to try to create.

a minimal exposure to toxins and contaminants, and then try to create that safe place where the body can naturally detox. Because if that bedroom is bad, then sometimes trying to figure out how to purify the kitchen and your car and the garage and your office and everything is secondary to you getting that bedroom right. So start with the bedroom. Something like the Air Angel would be a good fit for basically any bedroom in North America to give you a broad spectrum of coverage. But if you do the HVAC,

our hope is that you don't need any plug-in units at all. That's not always the case. Sometimes you have a bathroom with mold problems, or you've got an unattached garage, or you've got two dogs that sleep in the laundry room and you need extra effort there or something like that. But in general, if you've got that HVAC system, we want that to be the purifier for the house.

And so to put it in perspective, if you buy a thousand dollar HEPA air purifier, plug in one, and you run it on turbo speed, and it sounds like a jet engine, your HVAC system of its average home is probably going to move 10 times as much air as that turbo speed thousand dollar HEPA air purifier. And yet the HVAC industry basically looks as your HVAC purely for the purpose of energy and temperature change with some somewhat minor modifications that could be your primary air purifier.

and the volume of air that goes through that is so much greater, partially because the fan is bigger, partially because you've got a duct system, partially because that fan is further away from you in general, so it can be louder and yet you don't hear it because it's further away. And so if you do have that central system, one of our units, $900, right now it's on sale for 630.

Milburn (32:43.574)
So we can lock in that price for anyone listening to this, but that one unit can cover up to 2,400 square feet. And so with no replacement parts for life. And so you're basically taking the bones of your HVAC system and then converting that into the purifier. And you just have such a bigger scale of benefit than having a bunch of plugin units. Now we have those plugin units and we have different types. Our units typically don't have any type of

Cheryl McColgan (32:44.522)
need to get on that.

Milburn (33:11.738)
HEPA or mechanical filters. We're not trying to do what everyone else is doing We would probably make more money if we just put out a big bulky HEPA air purifier with a lot of bells and whistles And made it look cool, but that's not what we're trying to do We're trying to basically move the kind of conversation forward. So our units are typically very small

And right now we're focusing on polar ionization for the core technology for the home. And that basically requires no replacement parts for life. It can kill something like mold in the air and on surfaces. It can help with particulates that carry the micro toxins. It's just very broad in its application. But if you don't have the central layer, you're basically going to have to look at each room as a separate zone.

While if you bake cookies in the kitchen, you might smell it in the master bedroom You could have really bad air coolant in the master bedroom and relatively okay in the kitchen or vice versa And so each room is going to be separate if you don't have that central solution So we would prefer that central solution, but we work with people around the world Singapore Dubai, you know Europe, you know, you name it South Africa and most those places you don't have central air So in those cases you're looking at the bedroom priority

And then any type of AC system or heater that has vents, like a window mounted system, you can convert that into an air purifier because a lot of times those are very prone to mold growth, to poor air quality. So you want to try to make sure anything that's blowing air, we want to piggyback on the airflow and improve the air quality going into the system, inside of the system, and coming out of the system.

Cheryl McColgan (34:43.146)
I think one thing it would be important to mention because you did mention the sale. And I do have the link on my website for that, or you can use Heal Nourish Grow. If there, if you happen to hear this later down the road, that sale isn't available anymore. But the thing I heard you say is that even if you're renting, even if you have a central, like that's the preferred one. I think I heard you tell somebody before that you can actually take that with you. Is that, am I remembering that correctly? So even if you installed the central solution in a place that you're renting,

Milburn (35:03.964)
Yeah. Yep.

Cheryl McColgan (35:10.142)
you're not throwing that money down the drain. And because it's a system that's no replacement parts for life, you just keep taking it with you to wherever the next place is.

Milburn (35:15.926)
Yeah, yep, yep. So there's a couple ways to go about it. So let's say you're in an apartment that's 800 square feet. Typically that's below the cost-efficient coverage of the installed version.

Not to say it's not done. We have smaller rooms that have it installed, especially in medical facilities. But if you had, say, like an 800 square foot apartment or less, we still want to make sure that HVAC system is healthy. And so what you can potentially do is put an air angel near the intake where the filter is for that HVAC. And that's kind of a way of.

kind of modifying that system without even installing inside of it. And so you're kind of where the air is going back into the system, you're purifying that, you're sanitizing it, and you're getting into that airflow. And then as the air is coming back out of the system, now it's cleaner, and you're able to mitigate some of that problems. So sometimes it's not even installing in the HVAC, but it's just being aware of where it is, what it is, how can you make the most of it.

And sometimes it's as simple as churning your thermostat to be a fan on or have a minimum amount of airflow. And maybe you don't buy anything from Hyper, but you just change the filters more regularly, maybe add carbon there, maybe run the air more often. Sometimes just that alone can help distribute humidity and the dry out surfaces and help mitigate potential problems. So it's just kind of being aware of that HVAC system, but getting to your point though, we have people in New York.

They're renting an apartment. Their HVAC system is shared with the floor. So it has like a common plenum. They don't even have a isolated system. So they have installed in the docks leading into their apartment. And typically it magnetically attaches. It does need power.

Milburn (37:03.322)
And anyone that wants to get into that, we can help about 50% of our clients install it themselves, but it does require being wired into a source of power. There's easier ways to do it as well, but it magnetically attaches. So you're not cutting anything, you're not screwing anything, you know, special tools. You're not permanently damaging or having any sign of ever being there other than the system should be cleaner. So if you're renting or you own, you can. Put it in there while you're there and take it with you when you leave.

Cheryl McColgan (37:31.178)
And then in the more permanent situation. So for example, I would say I'm moderately handy. Like I just installed my own reverse osmosis water. That was the first thing I did. I got to hear talk about the levels, eating water and then air quality. So if I'm moderately handy, is that something I could install on my own or with working with the HVAC, do you just not recommend that for people?

Milburn (37:36.655)

Milburn (37:39.746)

Milburn (37:51.978)
Yeah, we have a partnership with a master electrical company that does virtual consultations and we cover the cost of that. Typically we're going to say as a company policy, we recommend a licensed electrician. We don't want you to shock yourself, but probably 50% of our clients do it themselves. And so it's probably a 10-15 minute install.

but it does require you to turn off the breaker and kind of some basic electrical safety steps. And so we kind of leave that to our clients what they're comfortable with, but we do recommend someone that's licensed and has the knowledge just for safety of the person installing it.

But that virtual electrician has been very successful in helping a lot of handymen, a lot of, you know, neighbors, you know, son-in-laws, you know, like mother-in-laws, you know, like all kinds of people to do it without problems. But if you don't want to touch it, you don't want to do it yourself, we typically recommend a handyman licensed electrician, smart home installer. Thousands of these have been installed through HVAC contractors, but they're charging upwards of like $2,500 a piece. And typically…

Cheryl McColgan (38:36.48)

Milburn (38:57.146)
Their time is very expensive and their skills are unnecessary for this type of install.

Cheryl McColgan (39:04.438)
Okay, good to know. Any other, oh, I know, we talked a little bit. You mentioned before that a lot of your products have patents, and then you shared with me before we got on the call that, because I just asked if you had any exciting news come up. And I know you said some you can share, some you can't, but what is it that's making you get out of bed lately that you're working on? It's new, it's exciting, and taking you somewhere different.

Milburn (39:26.946)
Yeah, yeah, and I'm gonna have to think about how I can share some of these things or maybe what I can't. But our focus right now at Hyper is modifying existing systems in the home. And in the future, we hope to work more in the design of systems. So when you're installing a new HVAC system, when you're building a new house, the materials being used, you know, how you set up an HVAC system could be exponentially more powerful for air quality.

Cheryl McColgan (39:31.522)

Milburn (39:56.91)
with minimal changes when it's installed. But yeah, right now the patents we're filing are more along the lines of modifying existing systems. And I guess one of the things we're trying to tackle that I think I can share, because we already have a patent on it, is when someone installs an HVAC in a house, or maybe you just buy one.

there's almost no information about what type of filter you can put in that HVAC system. So as an example, when my colleagues in Vegas just put in like a $25,000, $30,000 HVAC system, he has no idea the tonnage of the HVAC, the him or the contractor have no idea the MIRV writing of the filter that it can handle. It's just silly. There's ways that an HVAC contractor could tell you.

um, the quality of Merv rating, but we've developed a solution to give people the data they need to make that decision and to know if their HVAC filter even needs to be changed when it needs to be changed. But to us almost as importantly is what rating of Merv can they put in that HVAC?

And there's ways that you can increase the Merv writing without adding strain on the system. So just to step back a little bit, the filter you have in your HVAC, it's kind of like you're sucking a milkshake through a straw. So if the straw is too small, it's not gonna work. So you don't wanna put too much strain on that fan system. You're gonna get decreased airflow. You're gonna potentially damage the fan. So you can't just throw in a HEPA filter in there because it's too dense. Maybe you can't even handle like a Merv 13. Maybe you can't handle Merv 10

because of the straw size for your HVAC was too small. But we're gonna be able to give you a simple and affordable way to determine what that is and when you need to change your filter. So we're really excited about that because that's gonna affect potentially, you know, hundreds of millions of households. Like it's a really large scale.

Cheryl McColgan (42:00.606)
Yeah, but that's very exciting because yeah, half the time you move into a house, you don't know anything about any of the systems. I mean, if you're lucky, they might have left the manual or something, but.

Milburn (42:05.798)
Hmm. Yeah, there's almost nothing. You crawl in there and there's like a bunch of numbers on the system, like serial numbers and stuff. Try to Google it. You're not gonna find hardly anything. We've Googled it. Like we've tried to find it for commercial clients. They do not make it easy. The tonnage is one of the simplest things on the system. And a lot of times that's not even apparent either.

Cheryl McColgan (42:18.039)

Milburn (42:32.502)
So the tonnage is kind of like the horsepower of your system. And if you had the horsepower, the tonnage, the dimensions of your filter and the square footage of your house, you can get a pretty good estimate of the Merv rating that you can handle. Not super accurate, but even if you could do that, that would be better.

But right now most homes, even with new HVAC systems, even with people that are really handy, and they get in there and they crawl around, they don't even know what the tonnage of the system is. So there's no way to calculate it using the existing data. And that leaves a lot of people just either going too high on the MIRV rating, so it's putting too much strain, or maybe they're going too low. Maybe they're changing the filters too regularly, they're wasting money.

or maybe they're not changing enough. Statistically, it's something like 80% don't change them every three months, which is kind of the…

kind of the bare minimum recommendations for a one-inch filter. So most people aren't changing them enough. And then you're getting a bunch of dust in the system, which can increase the energy cost. So forget air quality, just the energy cost. You get dust in there, it makes it harder for the coils to work. So we wanna make sure those HVAC systems have the appropriate filters and that they're being changed regularly. And we make that as practical and affordable as possible and hopefully save people money. And so that's one of our goals this year.

And some of the other ones we're still, some of the other ones I'm most excited about, we're about to file the patents, so I could be super vague on those. But there's a few other systems in your home and in the majority of homes in America that we're gonna try to make into air purifying devices. And I guess I'll leave it at that. But we're really trying to think outside the box. And we've got probably another 20 or so that we're,

Cheryl McColgan (44:00.75)
I'm going to go to bed.

Cheryl McColgan (44:10.271)

Milburn (44:19.122)
prioritizing by, we're just taking it one piece at a time. And so we'll continue with our current products, but we're existing, looking at other existing systems in the house that can be modified with great benefit.

Cheryl McColgan (44:34.314)
Before we wrap it up here, I do want to be respectful of your time, but it made me think of something that you said in the past too that I think really could be relevant to a lot of people that are possibly listening to this. A lot of people that are into this stuff could be in the healthcare space, and you mentioned that you do a lot of commercial applications. I think that your product, the way that you've described it, is really unique and that for places that need a higher level of purity like a hospital or a clinic or any kind of

space like that, people hearing this, they should definitely connect with hypoair because I think that they do have a product that's far superior and does a lot of interesting things with some. We didn't even talk about a lot of the virus, bacteria, those kinds of things. The way your system addresses those, I think, is also really valuable for a lot of people.

Milburn (45:06.13)

Milburn (45:16.763)

Milburn (45:20.178)
Right. Yeah. You talk about air quality problems, and then you talk about hospitals and it's next level. So and we have, yeah, we have products. So like the H5 product we have, we use sometimes the same product, but sometimes a different shape of the same product for commercialized machines. And so for years, we were focused on these commercial applications because we saw how big the problems were.

Cheryl McColgan (45:28.814)

Milburn (45:47.23)
The thing that we didn't understand was how difficult it is working with these big corporations and that in general they don't care that the ice machine is green with slime, but they do care that they have to pay for someone to come and clean it. And the same is true of hospitals, you know, even ice machines in hospitals are feeding people really sick. They're heavily contaminated. But the way that we were selling to them is to save them money on maintenance.

Cheryl McColgan (45:52.801)

Cheryl McColgan (46:14.432)

Milburn (46:14.466)
So we can apply the same technology to a home and yeah, potentially save you money on maintenance, but you're probably more concerned with not having slime growing on your HMI system, you know, mold and, you know, all this biofilm and everything. So the corporations were hard to work with, but kind of over the last few years, especially when the COVID craziness hit, basically we got too busy. We made the decision, we're not gonna try to convince any business that they have a problem.

Cheryl McColgan (46:23.45)

Milburn (46:41.866)
If a business owner knows they have a problem and wants solutions, we're there. We're happy to help. But for years, we were having meetings with hospitals and big hotels and everything. And they knew they had, I guess individuals knew they had problems, but as a corporation, they did not care to really solve them. And like literally, I remember one phone call with a hospital, they contacted us. They had a C diff, like a,

infection breakout in their hospital and they contacted us for help and the person in charge of the hospital for infection, basically prevention reduction, said that they were not interested in reducing their rates of infection. And we said, okay. It was like a really awkward call. There's like a bunch of people on the call, like different companies and we're like, okay. Well

Cheryl McColgan (47:30.926)
Why aren't they calling you?

Milburn (47:39.238)
we're here if you need us, like, it was, it's just like super weird, like the mentality there. And so instead they ended up getting like a couple $80,000 kind of R2D2 UV robots that they would wheel into a room after the patient left and zap the room, maybe once a week. But in the interim, you know, all the people come in and go in, all the sick people in the room.

Cheryl McColgan (47:41.026)

Milburn (48:07.354)
There's next to no mitigation. They're just pumping in fresh air, which is a good thing, but just the mentality of all these, these hospitals and businesses are really tough. Uh, but yeah, all that to say any, if, if there's individuals, you got a medical practice, dental clinic, you know, a biohacking facility.

you know, gyms, apartments, offices. We love working with those people because yeah, it can be very cost-effective and beneficial and simple. But yeah, it's a hard thing to see. And so we hope in the future, so like with hotels, for example, we've worked with some of the most famous hotels in the world. And what they often do is they'll install our products in a couple rooms or a couple floors or a couple maid service carts.

And then if someone complains, then they can move that person to the healthier room. And so our number one tip with traveling is just ask if they have any options. Because a lot of times, they didn't want to spend the money to do it for the whole hotel because they don't think people care. And a lot of people don't. And so they do it only for a few rooms and they use different mattresses, different cleaning products, maybe products like ours. Maybe they have HEPA purifiers available, but they only do it for a few rooms and they typically don't advertise it because they don't want it to seem like

Cheryl McColgan (49:00.874)

Milburn (49:25.236)
the rest of the hotel is dirty, and you have to pay extra for the clean. And sometimes you don't have to pay extra, but just ask. And so as kind of the mentality of consumers, us, changes, and we say, I'm not gonna stay in your hotel if it has mold, then they'll take more proactive steps to change it.

Cheryl McColgan (49:27.33)

Cheryl McColgan (49:42.814)
Yeah, and that's a really great tip. I never even thought of asking the hotel if they have a, what would it be like an allergy friendly room or something like that or.

Milburn (49:47.398)
Hmm? Yeah, yep. Yeah, for some of us sensitivities, hypoallergenic rooms, you know, things like that. A lot of times they have those. A lot of times they have even like Costco air purifiers available. Like it doesn't have to be anything fancy, but anything that can help cut the contaminants because the highest VOCs we have ever measured is in a hotel room after cleaning. And so a lot of times hotel rooms are going to have all the same issues of your home.

and then a lot more. So obviously you have all the people coming, bacteria and all that, but you have a lot of cleaning products that you're not gonna be familiar with, a lot of synthetic fragrances, potentially a lot of mold. You stay in a really nice hotel, it's by the ocean. A lot of times they're leaving their windows open, they have a lot of moisture problems, they get a lot of mold. One of, I forget who it was, made the point that she is on a search for a hotel with hard floors.

And I never really thought about it, but basically all the hotels have carpets. Um, and so carpets are, are little kind of, uh, filters that don't actually get rid of the contaminants. They just kind of absorbing and go walk around on it. So, yeah, I mean, a lot of hotels are basically designed for poor air quality. And then you also have the added, um, complexity of when you're in a new environment, your nose is kind of, kind of beyond high alert. And so a lot of times people have the experience, even those that aren't

Cheryl McColgan (50:42.092)

Cheryl McColgan (50:45.52)

Milburn (51:11.594)
super sensitive. In a hotel room they're going to have that heightened sensitivity and they're going to be really reactive. So yeah asking for a cleaner room is the first step. You can also take an Air Angel with you, plug it in, go out to dinner, and give it a chime to cut the concentration. But yeah a lot of times hotel rooms are going to be one of the dirtiest places you're going to be.

Cheryl McColgan (51:18.71)
Yeah, that's really interesting.

Cheryl McColgan (51:32.006)
malls are too actually. I rarely go in a mall anymore, but I often notice when I do go in that my eyes and my skin almost just feels itchy, but my eyes especially, it's just really intense and I feel like there's got to be something going on with the air or the chemicals or all of the above.

Milburn (51:40.518)
So, mm-hmm. Oh, there's lots going on. Yeah, yeah, lots of going on in those places. A lot of times in the bigger commercial spaces, at least there are laws that require outside makeup air. So they're forced by law to bring in outside air.

to exhaust the indoor air. If it wasn't for that, it'd probably be a whole lot worse. So like something like a hospital, it depends on where it is, but they might have to change the air 20 times an hour. Like they got to pump a lot of air out. And something like a mall would be required to do that. But the smaller spaces especially, or obviously the more extreme examples would be like a perfume store.

where there's a lot of fragrances and they are a lot of heavy concentration of chemicals, things like that. Especially if someone is dealing with like a mold issue at home, for example, they tend to be in that heightened state of reactivity to something like those fragrances. And yeah, so yeah, ice machines, restaurants, like there's a lot of problems. But again, our goal is not for you to live in fear of these things. Our hope is that your bedroom, your home is a safe place to detox, to…

build your resilience and you can go out into the world and not be as reactive. But any place that you're spending longer periods of time, ideally you're going to be getting some, some sort of indoor air quality solutions there. So you're not overwhelming the body.

Cheryl McColgan (53:14.954)
Yes, that makes a lot of sense. And I like that you brought it back to the positive because often of these things, when you go down these rabbit holes, it's so easy to be like, what can I eat anymore? Where can I go that's safe to breathe? And so I think the take home here is obviously just do the best you can with what you have to work with. You got to work within your budget and you got to work within, but you gave several great tips for much less expensive options and simpler things. Like just when you're getting your yearly, you know, HVAC, or you have somebody come to service it, making sure that.

Milburn (53:22.875)
Totally, yeah.

Cheryl McColgan (53:43.03)
you know, that everything's flowing properly and you've got, you know, changing the filter. That is the number one thing to take away from today. You're supposed to change it every three months. So learn where your filter is and definitely change that to start with. So, David, I just want to really thank you for taking the time today. Don't forget about the sale so you can take advantage of their amazing indoor air quality solutions. If you're hearing this right after it comes out, they might still have that going on. I think that's an awesome price for that's far less than what you normally charge. And

Milburn (53:48.198)
See you.

Milburn (53:55.862)
Yes. Yeah.

Cheryl McColgan (54:11.03)
Thanks for taking the time today, I really appreciate it.

Milburn (54:13.014)
Absolutely and just reach out to us. So the current sale we're ending pretty soon but reach out to us and we'll extend the sale to you just for Making it this far and actually carrying that much So yeah, we'll extend the sale to you and just reach out to our team and we'll do that We never want it to feel like you rushed. You know, you're super rushed to make a decision or you missed out Especially during the holidays here. So yeah, just reach out to the team and we'll extend that sale price

Cheryl McColgan (54:25.569)

Cheryl McColgan (54:38.39)
Yeah, thank you so much for that.

Very generous, thank you. All right, take care.

Milburn (54:44.498)
Thanks guys, appreciate it.